The XCritic Interview: Lance Hart

Lance Hart, The Top 1% Cat Dad, @LanceHartFetish, Owner of @PervOutNetwork, Husband of @GothCharlotte … Yep, I know the name. Everyone does, right?

The interviews always get set up different, and it sets the tone for everything that follows. Sometimes it’s formal, sometimes it’s not. A few weeks ago, I’m driving through Detroit, Michigan. I get an email. It’s from Jesse, Lance’s PR guy. The banner flashes across my iPhone “Interview!” and scrolls the first line, “Hey Lance, Please meet Jim Steele from XCritic …” Yep, this is it. I’m gonna interview one of the biggest names out there today. I thought to myself, “What have I gotten myself into?”

I smiled

Then, I waited a few minutes, and responded via voice to text to Lance, who was cc’d on the message that “I’d get back to him by tomorrow, and we’d work on setting something up.” A few hours later, I get a response from Lance, “Sounds good, Thanks Jim”.

As casual as that sounds, I didn’t take it casual. Nope. I knew that Lance likes to talk, he's a cordial guy, and that he's not opposed to having fun with a conversation. I also knew that Lance is a no-nonsense kind of dude when it comes to business. Not that I would ever fuck around with something, but I certainly couldn’t fuck around with screwing up a phone call from Lance.

We set up a time for that next week, on a Thursday afternoon, and then I went to work. I researched, made notes, printed out my prompts for the questions and so on and so forth. Made sure my recorder was working… made sure it was charged. I had everything ready, counting down… I was – overprepared. Then, the phone rang.

“Hey Jim?”

“Hiya Lance, how are you?” I tried to be cool, but probably wasn’t; at least, not at first. “We’ll go through some of this preliminary stuff, and by the way, you understand I’m gonna hit record here in a minute, right? I’ve got your permission?”

“Sure thing.” Lance was cool as a cucumber.

“Awesome.” I got my stack of questions, and around five minutes into our phone call, forgot about most of them. … I was feeling alright now, like I knew this guy already. Oh sure, I referenced my prompts, just to try and stay on track and within time restraints. But for the most part, we just talked for a little over an hour. Easy as pie, a fun back and forth. I came away knowing a lot more than I did going in, and that’s the idea.

By the way, I fucking love my job!

***

Jim Steele– Lance, it’s great to talk with you. I have looked forward to this. I've been so busy this week trying to get prepared, but it's good to finally talk to you. How are you doing?

Lance Hart– Good. Just, working a normal amount, you know. It hasn't been too crazy, hasn’t been too boring either. I’m petting the cats, and I get to hang out with my awesome wife. So, yeah, it’s going great.

Jim– I see that a lot with you. The cats and your wife. You come across as a family man, and we see that once in a while, but it's not all day long. So, it's kind of a welcome sight once in a while, you know, to see people doing “normal things.”

Lance– Yeah. I mean, we try to! Ha-ha. I mean, we do a lot of freaky stuff on film, Charlotte and I. We're both perverts, so we get into our own freaky stuff. But most of that is just really in the bedroom. The rest of the day it's like… well, we should get a new rug. That’s the new thing lately. We're saving for a house and this and that. It's just kind of worked for us to just be totally normal husband, wife, partners outside of porn. I think we both kind of need that kind of support, just emotional support. The other thing, it also helps to keep our money totally separate, which I say all the time. I think it is a great way to go if you have two sex workers coupled up, because then you don't end up working for each other for free. Or, if one's making more money than the other, the other one tends to go into a support role, if you’re sharing all the money.And then, the next thing you know, the other one, the one that wasn't making much money. If that happens, it gets weird. So, we keep it separate. We share some bills and that's about it. I think it makes sense.

Jim– Sure. You mentioned the support. That's got to be a huge part of it. Let’s go back to the beginning, you're both in porn. That's terrific. But I'm curious for you, Charlotte's a huge part of what you do, she's cool, but right now, we’ve got you. What was it that really steered you towards porn? I get from you that, like you say, you've definitely got a freaky… a funky side to you. That's obvious and it’s perfectly fine. But, with or without film, I still see doing something in this arena, if you will. So, was it for the money, was it fame, or did you just see this as a way to combine all of your talents? I think that you also have a good business sense that goes along with a lot of this. Did you just combine all these things to dominate… to change this landscape that we know as the Industry?

Lance– Well, I was around 27 when I started doing porn. Before that I had a ton of regular jobs. I did retail for years. Then construction, landscaping… everything. Then I put myself through college because I was like, I need a better job. Ha-ha

Like most people, I was motivated by breakups. You know, I was dating someone I really liked, and then I loved. And then… they leave me for someone who has their shit together.

Well, I started to think… O.k., I guess I’ve gotta have good credit, and a little bit of money, you know what I mean? I don’t want to be some kind of surfing loser my whole life, you know. I went to college, worked my way through it. It was a pain in the butt, don’t get me wrong, but I got it done and got a bachelor's degree. Then I was able to do grown up jobs. I wore a suit, did sales, marketing, and business development… that kind of stuff. And… I really tried hard at that. I tried a few different things, and I was doing sales and some aspects of it. I did pretty good work with start-ups. I started a little software company in this and that. But none of it really… I just couldn't make myself give a fuck about it. Haha. Other than it's a good job. It was something I could tell people about, and my parents were proud. Still, I just didn't care. Sure, I was making six figures a year, but I would be talking to people, and they would ask, “So, what do you do?” I would say, “Oh, we make this software…”

Oh, it was so boring. Plus, the businesses we sold it to? It didn't really help them. It's just something that they would acquire and implement. I mean, they thought they needed it, but they didn't… you know. Then I got laid off a lot because 2008 happened and the economy crashed and… I just couldn't keep a job for more than three months. Everywhere I go get a job, I get laid off. And so, I’m screwed. I was back to raking leaves door to door just to pay bills. And at that point, I read an ad on Craigslist about something and that ended up being my start with Sean Cody. The first time I did it was for the money. It was $1900 and all I’ve gotta do was jerk off? {We both laugh}

I thought, “Weird... but all right.” I never hooked up with a guy at that point. I was kind of a little curious about it, but I hadn't really? I had always just been a guy that dated women. But I had all these kinks, right? I would look at porn constantly, and all these fetish things, and I'd seen Dominatrixes. It had always been this dirty secret. Like, what if my Bro’s found out or, you know, I certainly wouldn’t want my family to find out, or someone I was dating to find out because they would get very shameful about that. There were times I would get honest about it when I was with someone, and they would be like, “Oh, that's gross. You want a girl to fuck you with a strap on? Oh, Ewhhh!” And I kept getting bad feedback from that life. So anyway, I’m at this gay porn company and it's like, “Oh my God, I can just be myself! Oh, they want me to be a pervert, just jerk off and play with my butthole?”

Then they told me that I was really, really good at it. I was like, “Oh, come on, it's jerking off… who’s NOT good at it?” They said, “Dude, you’d be surprised. We get a lot of weirdos in here… but you’re great! We want to hire you.” So, they gave me a contract.  

I have to say that was honestly the first time I had done a job that paid really well. But also, one that I felt like I was good at. I really cared about the product because I care about porn. I was watching porn. I paid for porn. I always had; you know.

Then I was like, well… this seems like a fit. I’ll just have to swallow that bullet one day, my family's going to find out. What are they going to think, and how am I going to date anyone one, and all the stigma stuff kind of kept me at bay? But eventually I just kind of sucked it up, and I was like, “Well, I guess fuck it, I just got to be myself.” I thought, “This is stupid to not do the one thing that I think I'm good at, and enjoy.” Well, once I started coming out as “I’m a sex worker”, and “I do gay stuff,” and all kinds of stuff? A huge backlash in my personal life happened. It was to the point where good, long lasting friends just wouldn't talk to me anymore. My family? We're cool now. I'm cool with my parents now, and we get along great. But there were years where I wasn't invited to do anything. It was “Stay the fuck away from us… You're disgusting.” That kind of stuff went on. It took them a while to come around.

Well, because of that backlash– I knew this had to work.

It can't just be like, “Oh, I just went and did some porn because I was desperate, and ruined all these relationships, and it didn't work out, and now I've got to figure out what I'm gonna do for a job?” That would be terrible. I needed to be like, “OK, I did all that, went through all that shit. But on the other end of it was millions of dollars and accolades, great stuff and happiness and all that.” I just, … I had to make it work, if that makes sense.

Jim– It makes… I think it makes good sense.

Lance– Long answer to your question, but that’s the truth. I guess that's the only thing that's always driven me to build PervOut, to go through the pain, the work of budgeting, and making sure I make good money on shoots this month. Okay, don't spend it all. Maybe I need to hire a marketing person now? How much is that going to cost? Oh shit. Well, you need to do more shoots this month in order to afford that, to further grow the business. Because I knew, there's a lot that goes into this. I had to travel to all these shows like XBiz, and wherever else. I didn't have a lot of money. Everybody, even in porn was like, “Why do you do that shit, it’s not for performers?” It’s like, why do you go? They’re not looking for you to be there, why would you go? I’m thinking, because I need to know how MindGeek operates so I can build one too! You know, like what's going on at BangBros and Sean Cody. How do they do all the stuff they do outside of the film? I need to know how that works, because I want to build one just like it. And everyone was like, you're not going to do that. I was so driven. Don’t tell me I can't, because I will. So that's the story there, and I’m happy it’s worked out. I guess I got lucky a lot, too, but it's worked out. PervOut is doing great, debt free. I bought a car, so I’m not 100% debt free, but pretty close to being debt free. I own 100% of PervOut myself. I’ve got all the sites and everything operating to where I work a normal amount of hours, probably less than a normal amount of hours a week, just to keep it running. It’s been a good life. I'm pretty grateful.

Jim– Sean Cody, I want to talk about that for a second, because that's obviously where you started. When you were with them, did you find, and you mentioned this… I think that we all could see the reality of the labels outside of the Industry, but even inside the Industry, when you were with that particular contract… when you were kind of trying to think outside the box? Did you have any kind of pushback of the stuff you just described, your ultimate vision and were kind of like, “Gee, I can't wait to get out of this?” Or, did you just kind of treat that as a training period, if you will? “When I do… this is what I’m gonna do?”

Lance– I had a very positive experience with Sean Cody. I definitely think you nailed it, with the training thing, the way I looked at it. The people that I interacted with at SeanCody were one of their owners, their recruiter persons/talent, the person that talks to the talent. Then their directors, camera people, and the other performers. And 100% of them were just people that I liked being around, and all on the up and up… no surprises or shady anything. I mean, anything you’ve heard bad about porn, I'm sure it happens, but I did not experience any of that. Sean Cody was just like, wow, this is slick, which also motivated me to want to build my own. The whole time I knew, like, OK, I'm going to do this contract. Then, I re-upped. I think I did two years with them because it took me some time to put some money together, and kind of get my ducks in a row. But I knew after two years I was going to build my own thing. I didn't know that there is a stigma between…  like I wouldn't really be allowed to do “straight porn” after that. I had no idea, because one of the different things about Sean Cody is that, at the time, we were in a bubble. None of the performers had Twitter or social media, we weren't allowed to go to any trade shows or anything. I mean, it was a very strict contract like, “Hey, you work for us and only us. We put money into building your image. And during your contract with us, we own it.” And that sounds like it might be kind of negative. But honestly, they paid so good and treated us so well, there wasn't anything weird about it. It was like, “OK, that's fair.” But the result was I had no clue what the rest of porn looked like. I just knew what SeanCody looked like. So, I get out of the contract and then I'm like, “OK, let me see if I can get booked here in this straight shoot.” It's immediately like “Dude, you just did two years of gay porn. You can't do straight porn.”

And I was like, “What? Why? What… I didn’t even know!” These days that, of course, isn't that big a deal. But for years it was a very big deal. It was almost insulting if you even asked. So, that's kind of what led me down the fetish road, I’m like, “Well, I’m kinky anyway, and fetish porn doesn't care if I did gay porn. It's just the mainstream straight porn that cared. So, I'm just going to do that.” And that’s what I did.

Jim– Yeah. And you brought something up with Sean Cody, and it's why I asked the question. I know that was back before Twitter is what it is today, and today Twitter…

Lance– Sure.

Jim– Everybody is kind of… that's where they live. So, that was more the aim of… you, yourself getting out, as opposed to Sean Cody. I didn't mean that, certainly not in a way that they were bad, because that was not the aim of that question. Just more of your creativity. So… good to know that it only kind of, I guess, cemented where you thought you wanted to go to.

Lance– Yeah. I just can’t say enough good things about them. You gotta understand, I came from selling telecom, business-to-business, telecom and software sales. If you know anyone, or if anyone reading this has done B2B sales, it's a respectable job for sure, but it is not a pleasant office environment, most of the time. It's sharky, kind of douchey, and kinda do what you got to do to get the contract kind of attitude. It was just very fake. Sure, we wore nice suits, went to all these conventions, and schmoozed; we did all that stuff. But we also went through the competition’s dumpsters, literally– to look at their invoices to see who their clients were, so we could get clients. It was not great. So, when I saw porn as this… not a glamorous, but just totally honest, and full of integrity thing? I was like, oh this great! So that's… yeah, that's what really got me into it.

Jim– Sure. There’s a lot of people, and nobody outside the Industry believes it, but inside the Industry, it's a lot of straight dealing. I know that there's some bullshit that goes on, but most of the time it's on the up and up. And I have to admit, that's refreshing. But a lot of people, like I say outside, they don't believe it. They think it’s back alley looking, like you just described mainstream America normally as being… They think that the Industry is one thousand times worse. It's not the case.

Lance– I think it's more of a law of nature than a reflection on the Adult Film Industry. But the cliche of big eats small, you know, like the big company eats the small company, and the big entities eat the small entities. That's true in porn for sure. If you're new and starting out, you need to watch out, whether it's a tradeshow you’re doing with a better known performer, or you're signing up to do a bunch of work with Gamma, or maybe doing a contract. You know, they're a big company and they're going to get every ounce of you out of that they can, business wise. But I haven't seen a totally unethical grossness, at least in my experience. I've heard stories, and I believe them. But I do believe those scumbag stories are not the norm. Those people are dirtbags. They shouldn’t be in porn.

Jim– I think they have a good way of kind of weeding themselves out of the mix, because ultimately, you've got to kind of live with each other, and let's face it, in an intimate way. So, you're not going to treat somebody, at least not on purpose, just horribly. But, yeah, I wish that could be cleared up, it probably never will. But you mentioned labels, and let's talk labels, because that goes… I think that goes with you all the way, Industry, mainstream… I don't care. Do you think, and you've kind of already answered this, but just to destroy labels, to make everything as possibly close to normal, if you will, to be able to jump back and forth across that fence. Is that your main deal that gets you out of bed in the morning, and gets you going?

Lance– Oh, I mean, it was more of a… I don't know, just being myself, and then a necessity, than a drive. Every now and then I would hear about some “crossover performer” being kind of beat up over some stuff. I would do what I could to defend them, and I would get passionate about it. But really, those are the assets that I had when I came into porn, and those are the tools I had. And I look at them like that, as assets. Like the stigma and everything, they're all just tools. Being one of the guys in porn that’s decent looking enough to be in anything, and capable of taking it in the butt or giving it in the butt, and doing straight, or gay porn, or trans porn… it made me a lot of money. I mean, it was a supply and demand thing.

Think about it, almost every guy that performs with trans women gets nominated for Male Performer of the Year at the Trans Awards, because there’s just not that many of us. I think we're about to see that change drastically, just because of recent events, and a lot of mainstream performers saying “I want to work with trans women now.” I think that's good, that’s gonna change. But the downside of that, and it’s not a downside, it's all good news that it’s changing. But, an effect of that is the guys who say, “Oh, we didn't have to try that hard to go win an award, and make that much money. We just had to show up, and do our job, and be OK.”

Now, the guys who are the best of the best of straight porn, those guys? I really respect that they work hard. I mean, they show up, they lay it down. I can't name names, because I don't know who is going to start work in trans women, and who’s not. But, you know, Ramon Nomar recently said he wants to work with trans women. That's a guy who probably works twenty five days a month, just grinds it out, shows up, and lays it down. He’s a pro, he’s going to get it done. That's a different caliber of performer than I was, even in my prime. I mean, I was never even that great. I just kind of showed up and did OK. I got booked more than I could handle. I turned down more shoots than I got. Just constant working. I always had work.

The porn that I made for PervOut, for years, was pegging porn. The sex would be really hot, and the performers would be hot and all that. But it'd be in a shitty apartment with terrible lighting, and you could see the extension cord, and the background was just poor quality. But it still made a ton of money because there wasn't that much of it out there. Again, the demand was high and the supply was low …, now that it's much more normalized, we all gotta try a little harder, those of us who want to make pegging porn. We’ve gotta make it really, really good pegging porn, make it stick out, figure out what the angles are. So, it's, you know, different. But it was asked, and to answer your question if anything, the stigma really helped me out. So, I can't really complain about it.

Jim– You mentioned oh, help me… I just had this jotted down, the supply and demand. OK, now if we're talking girl/girl lesbian, I have heard on more occasions than I can count, the directors of the performers will tell me that you can absolutely tell the difference if it's just “gay for pay.” Does that affect you in some way? And, I hate to kind of come out and ask this question, but I will. Do you do you identify straight, gay, bi, or do you just roll with whatever, it's that cool with you that you don't have to “act” the scene?

Lance– These days, I’m what we call bisexual. That's what I am. But years ago, we called that queer, you know, someone who mostly dates women. But also, I’ve dated trans women. Never dated a guy, not to say I wouldn't, just hasn’t come up. I really enjoy sex with guys, and girls, and trans women. We used to call that queer. Now we say that’s bi, or pan, or whatever, … I say bi, it's easier, but I don't really care and I'm pretty sure it will change again, whatever we call it, and I'll change again. I mean, lately I'm pretty much a bottom. The past few weeks, I'm super into taking it in the butt, and sucking dick. Right? But, a year ago, I didn't really like anything in my butt, it hurt. Your body changes, you change, your hormones change, you get older? So, I don’t stick to anything. I guess fluid might be the word. But when it comes to acting, I can only speak for myself. In that case, I've worked with gorgeous women, and I was definitely acting, because I just was not into that day, and it wasn’t her fault, it was the day, it was just in my head. Or, sometimes it depends, maybe somebody said something terrible just off camera and people are like, “Oh, you’re a terrible person!” Then it’s like, “Oh, how can I finish this day? And you just act your way through it.” 

But then you’ve got femdom, and scene partners, and a lot of women have gone to the point where if they were men, it would have been called rape or abuse. But, they’re women. So, it's called something else. As an example, if I'm tied up, and there's nothing I could do, and I'm gagged, and they're just doing all kinds of shit off camera. I'm like, “Stop, you know?” But I can't talk? Haha. Those days? Definitely acting. But even that, it’s not like a gay for pay, or straight for pay thing. It's just a shitty day. But the kind of deal where you're acting your way through it kind of thing.

Jim– Oh, I gotcha on that one. It's just a kind of a… I don't do any of it. I'm on this side of the camera, so to speak. So, it's an interesting concept if you're going to be able to, I guess, pull it off without necessarily always being that into it? I'm not sure that most people could do that. That's what sets you guys apart. And I don't mean you guys as in men, I mean you guys as the performers, all of them.

So… at what point, and this is kind of a prelude to PervOut, but at what point did you stop working for other people, creating your own content, and calling your own shots?

Lance– Well, immediately after the Sean Cody contract, I started a Clips4Sale, and that would be my first time producing. I paid someone else to be in a porn. I owned all the content, and at the time, was putting it on Clips4Sale to make money. So that was the start of that. But I supplemented that with performing, and that fit really well, because the more I performed, the more my following grew, the more exposure I had, and the more performers I had. I would meet women to work with. I’d be onset, and maybe I'm not their scene partner that day, we're just in the same location. And we chit chat over, whatever … gummy bears that are on the table, and they'd be like, “Oh, I like to peg, but I never get to do it.” Then I come back with, “Really, come to Tampa, I’ll shoot ya. What’s your rate?” So, that’s one way I would meet other performers. It’s a lot easier when you’re in person, and you’re already naked, to grease those wheels, than a cold DM, or an email to their agent. Haha, like, “Hey, I'm thinking about booking this person.” With them, it's an uphill fight the whole way. But if you already met them? Yeah, man. So, it was easier to perform.

A couple of years into it, I was in a relationship with a really nice lady, she was a waitress at a diner. She just got really uncomfortable with me doing the sex with all the different people all the time. I also had a business partner with her. They were like, “Think about this, Dude, you’re always flying out to California all the time. You're not spending enough time paying attention to growing your own business on this end. You need to stop.” So, I took a couple months off just to see, what if I just make my own porn. Is that work?  It was scary, because I was used to getting between 3-7 thousand dollars a month in paid bookings. I was like, “Ok, this is going to be really hard, and I need to be careful.” Because all of a sudden, if I made my own porn and it tanked, if it didn't do well? I was broke! And, it was rough. I mean, I had a couple of months where I was late on bills, the first go around. But I ironed it out, figured it out, and I was like, “OK, I actually can do this.” And then that girl and I broke up, and I was heartbroken so I just couldn’t perform. I mean, I just literally… when you go through heartache, sometimes you just can't. There are certain things you can't stomach. Let's put it that way. I just knew, I was like, “No fucking way I can perform right now at any level.” So, I hired guys to take my spot. And, three months maybe… I think that was the first time I was not performing for other people. So, no outside income, running my own production, just being a director and a producer. And that was it. And it was scary because I had a staff, and business partners. I was splitting money with other people who weren’t really doing much. And I was broke, for a while. I was making a profit. I mean, it wasn't losing money, PervOut… it was making money. But me? I was personally broke– like peanut butter sandwiches for dinner broke. And I was like, “Well, technically I can do this, you know?”

I learned along the way that I had to set some new goals. If this is really going to work, I'm going to have to buy my partner out someday, because there's just not enough money to go around. And at the time, it is a lot easier if I could be in the movie, when I need to be, if someone doesn't show up or something like that. Fast forward a few years. I worked my butt off, lived like I was broke for a year, and eventually saved up enough money to buy everybody out. Everybody got paid, and we’re all cool now. I’d say everybody made money on me, which is cool, but now I own it all. So now, if I don't feel like performing for a year? It’s fine. I actually outsource most of the directing now too. I literally don't have to leave the house if I don't want to, and it all makes a great profit. It's kind of worked out.

Jim– Let's talk about your directing for a minute. You've got the PervOut Network, which. Oh, boy…  Do we wanna list all of them? Well, there’s not so many, I shouldn’t say it like that.

Lance– How many sites do I have? just launched HotTS…

Jim– So that makes… you’ve got HotTS, DykedDown, BiFuck, SweetFemDom, and ManUp.

Lance– The next one coming up is… JP (Award Winning AVN Director & Podcaster Extraordinaire John Paul The Pope) from Kink, he runs a lot of kink sites, he’s starting a site with PervOut as well. It’ll be straight BDSM type of stuff, possibly some trans content. You’d have to ask him what he's going to shoot. It's actually totally his show. I just invested in it, help build sites, so we’re teaming up on a PervOut site with him. 

Jim– Let me back up a minute. With everything that you’ve got going. Everything that you own. That's your deal. How does that mesh with your OnlyFans? Or are they just completely separate? One of them is just kind of out there making you money, and you have fun with it, don't get me wrong, but it's not something that you own specifically, because everybody's got their OnlyFans. Right? But is that something that you sit and worry about, and lose sleep over, or does it just kind of take care of itself at this point?

Lance– I'll be honest, I often find myself thinking I know something… and then I'm dead ass wrong. And I was just wrong about OnlyFans, when it started to really grow, and almost every performer had one. I guessed that it was as a short phase, like it would go away, just like Customs4u, I think went away and I iWantClips was hot for a little bit, then it went away… ManyVids had a little spike and then it went away.

I thought standalone Pay Sites, with the official affiliate program was the way to go. I was trying to convince all my friends, “Dude, quit wasting your time with OnlyFans, you need your standalone site that you own. You own everything. Quit giving it to a platform!”

So, I had an OnlyFans, just because it takes a second to sign up and I had Just4Fans, and the Clips4Sale and the other one… LoyalFans. I had those accounts, but I didn't really use them. And every now and then, I'd be like, “Alright, I guess I'll post shit on here, you know, whatever.” But it never made more than a thousand bucks a month. You know, barely noticeable money for me. Then, pretty recently, I guess, since the pandemic, I started seeing other performers making real money like, you know, 50k plus. And I was like, well, they're almost making as much as I make, and I own a network! I went wow, “OK, maybe I should take this seriously.”

I got serious. But I mean, we're talking very recently, I started trade shooting regularly with other performers, and having a real battle plan for all the OnlyFans, and putting it out there. I hired a staff to help me with it, and… getting serious. But it's still not my main focus. I'm still leaning towards thinking it’s a bubble, but a really big one. You know, eventually it's going to pop. And so, not putting all my eggs in that basket. Still, it fits with PervOut, because… well, like HotTS, yes, it’s a brand new trans thing, it's so new that it hasn't made money yet. I just launched it a couple of weeks ago. I did one big paid shoot for it where I spent around 8k, and I got some updates out of that. And I thought, well, shit, do I really want to throw 8-10k at this for two years until it starts to make a profit? I mean, I just wanted a trans site on PervOut to add value, and I love trans porn, so I thought I should do it. But man, that is a big undertaking. So instead, I can go trade with Casey Kisses, or I’m trading with Aubrey Kate tomorrow. She's going to put hers on OnlyFans. I'm going to put parts of it on my OnlyFans, but I'm going to pay an editor to make a fancy cut of it, of the sex scene with the cum shots, and anal, and everything. That would be an update for HotTS.

Jim– OK…

Lance– I've been putting money away for a while, because if the OnlyFans bubble pops, there's going to be a lot of performers who all of a sudden went from making thousands and thousands of dollars a month to nothing.Those performers are going to have a lot of content. And that content is not worth much to them because they don't have anywhere to put it. Some of them might start their own site, some of them might move to another platform. But I am pretty sure 90 percent of them would be willing to take cash for non-exclusive rights to that content. In that case, I'll just buy up a whole bunch of hot trans content, and use that as update's for HotTS, and I don't feel bad about it. I think even the members, if they knew that up front, they'd say, “Well, I don’t have to join 400 OnlyFans subscriptions, I can see all of it here… cool.”

Jim– Sure, and you bring up a good...

Lance– That's the strategy I currently have, and I’ll populate it with trades and stuff like that, and of course I’ll shoot features. But that's what, every couple months I’ll shoot a hot TS exclusive scene. I still think it'll be a high value Site to join if you like to jerk off to TS porn, because for 20 bucks a month you’ll have access to hundreds of videos that performers individually wanted to be in. They called each other, and said, “Hey, let's go to your house and fuck! Film it.” It’ll all be in one spot, plus the occasional big glammy feature. Yeah.

Jim– You bring up a really good point, though, especially with TS. You go to, I don't care … anywhere, and search that genre. You'll find something, maybe you won’t. So, if you want it, you're right. You're going to go to OnlyFans. You're going to sign up for 20, 30, however many different accounts that kind of float your boat for the day, or that month. So, to have it all in one spot is … I would say forward thinking at the very least. I know that if you're going to search that particular genre, or whatever the technical term is, I call it genre, it's (TS porn) kind of spread out. And you're right, you're going to go to a lot of different places to eventually find every single last thing that turns you on.

Lance– It's quite an undertaking. And then if you're buying customs on OnlyFans, I mean, when I get into stuff, I get into it. I have an OnlyFans burner account, which no one knows my username on, and I join other people's OnlyFans. I send them tips, I ask for customs, and I play the game. I'm like, “OK, this is what it's like to be a customer.” It’s expensive after a while, because I end up following ten people, then all the subscriptions, paying for customs, and half of them don't come through. You know, they're like, ‘Oh sorry babe, I didn't get to it.” I'm like, “Well, you can’t do a refund on here, no shit. Yeah, I guess just keep the money, OK?” And it's not the greatest experience as a user. Meanwhile, I'm probably talking to their husband, or manager, or something like that anyway, you know what I mean? Haha. But it’s hot when I get it… when I get what I want it, I'm like, “Oh, so fucking hot, this is cool.”

I don't want that to happen because I have so many friends that are making a great income now on their OnlyFans. So, I do not wish that to fall apart at all, including my wife, Charlotte is killing it on OnlyFans. She does her own, all her own messages. That's authentic, but I just think it's inevitable. So, I want to be in a position to where it's a win/win. Where, you know, my performer friends will probably be looking for a big payout, if OnlyFans falls apart, and I'll be there to buy it up. And, you know, with the people I talked to about doing it now, because OnlyFans is still there, I just put up a banner, if it's really hot, underneath the video, that links back to their OnlyFans. So, it's fair, and I give them money. I just don't see that as a loss.

Jim– I see it as somebody trying to consolidate, making it easier, a better user experience. So, certainly we don't want it to go away. But if it does, and even if it doesn't, you're still kind of putting yourself in a really cool spot where people can, … even people that are not familiar with it could go there and see a wide variety and say, “OK, so this is what I like,” then go and pay for that account.

Lance– Well, there's little things, like one performer lives in New York, and the other performer lives in L.A. They flirt all the time on Twitter, and they're both hot. If they worked together, it would be amazing. But… they don't feel like making the trip. Even though they're both making great OnlyFans money. They don’t feel like making the trip.

I'm in a position where I can cover the flight, and the hotel, and throw each of them, even if it's like 400 bucks each. It’s like, OK, well, you still got a little bit of money. You got some walking around money. You got to make the trip. You worked with the person you wanted to work with. You keep the contact for your OnlyFans, I just want a copy of it to put on HotTS. Is that a fit for everybody? No. There's a lot of people that’ll say, “Dude, I want my online exclusive.” That's cool. I respect that. But there's quite a few that are like, “Well, that motivates me to make that trip, and this will be great, and I've been wanting to go to New York for a while.” So here we go, COVID restrictions, of course, apply.

{We both chuckle at Lance’s disclaimer… I might have been the first to laugh, but I thought it was funny to put a disclaimer in there…}

Lance– You’ve got to find people who were going to be safe. Nobody that’s going to bring the virus from L.A. to New York and all that kind of shit. You know, it doesn’t fit everyone.

Jim– This goes so let's go into, … I think this kind of rolls into your style of directing and setting things up. I’ve seen you around. I've read of course …  I did a little bit of research. Haha. I think that when you set a scene, it's kind of like you're putting it in the way that you want it. I'll call it a do-it-yourself episode, especially if you’re in the scene. I think for you, because not every director, some of them do, but not every director steps out from behind the camera and joins in the fun. Is that what you do when you put a scene together, focus more on what you want personally, or what you think the audience is going to respond to? Or, do you think that those are both kind of one and the same at this point, because you've got such a good feel for what people are into, and expect from you?

Lance– Oh, it depends on the day for sure. I did a BiFuck shoot with Brooklyn Gray, Dante Colle, and Aspen. The PA was my friend Kasey Warner. So, it's a room full of people who turn me on, even the PA. I was like, “Oh my gosh, everybody here is so fucking hot.” But I kept my pants on all day because I just don't…  other than Dante, and he and I are like Bros. But we don't, like… flirt so much because we're just like buddies. I don't think he would be offended if I was like, “Oh my God, just let me suck your dick for a second.” I don’t cross that line with him because we're friends. Aspen… I was just getting to know. Brooklyn, I hadn't met until that day. Kasey, I was on a long shoot with her years ago, but I don't know her that well. So, it would be wildly inappropriate for me to be the director, and the producer, and the guy that's paying for everything… to all of a sudden jump in. Right? I would be like, so sleazy. Haha. I mean, it could go well, everybody could be like, “Oh yeah, of course Lance!” But oh man, what a sketch thing to try. So, I left my pants on. I was like, “I’m gonna jerk off to this later, that's cool.”

On another shoot, I had Ruckus, Penny Barber and Christian Wilde, and they’re all people I joke around with, and they’re cool, and I ran it by them. I was like, ‘Hey, just so you know, if anybody gets tired…” This was a marathon shoot. It was a whole deal, like 70 minutes of anal all in one shoot. So, I was like, “Hey, everybody is going to get paid the same either way. But if anybody wants to take a break, any of the guys, and just hold the camera, I'll jump in your spot, but no pressure.” You know what I mean? Either way is good for me. Ruckus, at one point was like, “Oooof! My hole… I've been out here all day, you know.” I was like, “Penny, are you OK with that?” She's totally OK with that. So, I jumped in. It added value to the scene, because we got an extra performer on there, me; and totally worked out. So, it just kind of depends on the day, right? You can't just be… all the time.

I mean, imagine how bad it could be if you're the director, and the person paying for it, and you're like, “Hey, suck my dick.” Yeah, it's terrible. So, you’ve gotta make sure you know the room, and if you do, there's a way you have to give everybody an “out”, to where, even if they're a little bit uncomfortable with that, it's totally OK to say, “No.” You can't abuse the power, if you know what I mean. I do enjoy jumping in when I can. But I really draw the line and I'm like, “No, today I'm just the boss,” you know what I mean? I'm not the pervert, and then I’ll be the pervert when I'm editing, and I'm jerking off to it. That's fine, you know, but I'm not going to, like, text them or DM them late at night, like, “I’m jerking off to this content… it’s so hot.” So, you know, you gotta be careful.

Jim– Sure. But at the end of the day, you're putting something together that I guess if you could, or if you wanted to, you could absolutely jump in and have a blast either way. And I guess that was the aim of that question. But I respect that. That's probably the best answer, the most respectful answer that you could have given.

Lance– Thanks!

Jim– Well, it all comes down to again, you mentioned Dante, and I interviewed Dante. I don't know, a month or so ago. And I think we both had a good time with it. But … I see your point; I wouldn't come across like that with my best buddy either.

Lance– It could be weird. Because he could be like, “I don’t really feel like that right now, but you're my friend and I want to make it weird-er by saying no…” So that's where you don’t want to create those situations. Right? It's, you know, it's different. But if it's all up front in an email, from the booking email on, I’m like, “Hey, at some point I may cross the line and become a performer, in which case this and that.” And sometimes you have to pay people more because you're adding another performer. You know, when my wife gets booked for boy/girl, it's a different rate than boy/boy/girl. So, sometimes you’ve got to add that in, because, “Hey, you’re sucking another dick too, by the way.” It’s just important because I have been crossed so many times, and they giggle and laugh while they're doing it, like it's cute. And then you go home, and you're like, “Am I just going to walk this off, or am I going to feel traumatized?” Sometimes, you don't really know until after. So, you’ve gotta be careful of that.

Jim– All right. So, I'm going to ask you about Charlotte. What is she, four years younger than you? Is that about right?

Lance– Oh, no. Like a lot. Let’s see, I'm 41 and…

Jim– Oh, I'm sorry. I didn’t know you were that old. {Awkward attempt at a laugh from Jim. Lance is good looking for 41 years old, and the Interviewer is terrible with his notes}

Lance– Oh yeah. She's way younger. We are… She is 16 years younger, 15 years?...

Jim– I don't know where I got that from. I must have misread something… {Meanwhile, I am granted a temporary reprieve from FUCKIN IT UP, cuz Lance has trouble remembering exactly how much younger Charlotte is too…} Anyway, we touched on your relationship earlier. Did you guys meet shooting a movie or a scene together? Is that how it happened?

Lance– Yeah. Then we flirted on Twitter. I was in a polyamorous type thing at the time and she was in a somewhat similar, in an open type thing. We flirted for a while, and we tried to be on set together a couple times, trade shoots here and there, but just couldn't sync it up. Then eventually, I was in Tampa, she was in L.A., and I was like, “Hey, can I just fly you out? I really want to shoot with you.” And so, I did. And it was like a 4 day thing, and I had done that with a few different people. So sometimes we would hook up at night off camera. Sometimes we would not, and be totally professional. Then sometimes we’d get all poly lovey dovey, you know, but that was where I was at. But with Charlotte, as soon as we met, we just really hit it off. I mean, it was like a different deal. And I knew I was like, “I really, really like this lady.” We didn't know each other all that well, and we lived on different coasts. So, it was like a long distance, light flirting thing. We were both in open relationships, and just kind of flirted? But, when she flew home, I felt sad. Like, I did not see that coming. I was like, “Oh, she's gone. Why am I… emotionally hung over right now?” Like, “I feel, like, so sad that she’s gone, what is happening?”

Jim– It's called love, my friend, right? 

Lance– Yeah, it just hit me like a ton of bricks and I was like, “What is going on?” Then she… I found out later, she felt the same way. And then, you know, things progressed. We were dating, but we only saw each other a couple times a year, that first year, three, four, maybe something like that? It wasn’t that often. Then I moved out to Vegas, and as soon as I moved to Vegas, I mean, I paid for her ticket to fly out. I had moved out to Vegas right before Valentine's Day. So, I flew her out, we did Valentine's Day together, and we got serious from there on. So that kind of that's how that worked out.

Jim– That well…. That sounds like a storybook, fairy tale… with maybe a couple twists and turns, but yeah, that's terrific. Nothing like finding somebody that compliments you. And that kind of again, you mentioned it, gives you the support, and lets you kind of do your own deal, and they're doing their own deal, and you're just into each other. Love it.

Lance– Oh, yeah. It's been… we've been very, very lucky. And we've both grown a lot over the years, changed and stuff. But we've grown together, and we've been fortunate that… even though we're almost different people than, you know, four years ago, we're still a very good team, you know. So that's super cool. Just a good deal. Like she's grown her business and, you know, grown professionally. She started a T-shirt company, and all these other things, you know what I mean? And just, you know, doing a lot of good. But we're keeping our money separate, and that’s really helped because we haven’t gone codependent… business wise, yet. So, we just encourage each other, I say “Go Baby Go, sell those T-shirts!” Then she's like, “Yeah, grow PervOut, that's cool!” Yeah, it's just kind of sweet like that. It’s good.

Jim– Yeah, well, I could see that. So, with Charlotte, I know on Twitter, it's @GothCharlotte, I believe, and I'll link all this up. It's cool. But I have to ask you because I don't know…  your look … I like it. The fishnets, the leather, the hair. You've got great hair. I'll tell you that straight up. But when you get into…  did she play any role in the ball busting, the pegging, and all that kind of stuff? I guess that people… when they see a guy in stockings and leather, they think that he’s into– the BDSM. Were you guys kind of partners in crime in that, or did you already have that kind of going on full force before her?

Lance– Oh, I think when we met, I was already into that. Yeah, the first day of the AVN, since when we were dating… we'd only been talking for a couple months. I was literally wearing fishnets and polka dot panties, eyeliner, the Doc Martens, and yeah. You know, I was already that way for sure. But it works out. It's funny. She didn't know, from what I remember, she had never pegged a guy before we were together. And she's like “Ball busting? I don't know… I guess I'll try that.” And then as it turns out, I mean, she was really into that, which is cool. So, it's just kind of worked out great for me, like, “Oh, great. My wife is totally into two of my main kinks here.” And then, I also like to top, and like to do her in the butt, which is great that she's into that too. That's worked out great.

Jim– And because that would be one of those relationship conversations that you’re kind of glad you didn't need to have because it all just worked out OK. So anyhow, that's good.

I'm going to drop this out here. OnlyFans. Give us a sales pitch, if you will, for somebody that is completely unfamiliar with you, with pegging, with ball busting, with trans. They’re just this guy who hangs out on Pornhub twice a week, and they're going to read this. What do you think? Are you going to get ‘em over there, at some point, just to maybe take a look? Or, a housewife possibly. It could be anybody.

Lance– Yeah. You never know who's going to be a paying customer. If I could pick, I want them to check out PerveOut, because I got a lot more eggs in that basket. And I do think it's a bigger value proposition, like check out these sites where there's so much content on there. But the OnlyFans thing is… it's really something I just neglected for so long and now I'm taking it seriously. It's a place to just kind of, “Oh, hey, that's me at the gym, and that's me jerking off. And, that's me fucking one of my friends, and that’s one of my friends, fucking me.” So, it's more like raw and authentic, direct contact? But yeah, who knows what they're going to prefer?

Jim– OK, I'm going to ask you one more question, and I'll let you go, because I know you've gotta get to your next appointment. But I see you, and you retweet Pineapple Support… a lot. And I'm behind Pineapple one hundred percent. But you also do webinars and panels. I'm curious to know what your aim is with that. Is it to help performers or budding producers, if you will, to grow? Is it to promote awareness? What's your main drive with putting yourself out there? I'm going to say… maybe in a capacity that is not as a performer, or even a director, just maybe an advocate. Is that what you're up to with those?

Lance– Well, with Pineapple Support, it's one of those things. It's just good. There's no bad about it. It is a legitimate value in our Industry. We need it. If you look at Twitter for more than five minutes, just the main feed in porn, you see a lot of mental health issues. There's a lot of people struggling with this or that, including myself. We're all struggling with something, and Pineapple Support supplies an actual solution to that. It's hard when you're a sex worker, or you're queer, bi, or whatever, if you're in a “not normal” relationship, it's hard to find a good therapist that can do… You know, and they're not magicians. They don't just wave a wand and POOF, you're fixed, you're looking for a professional who is trained to help you do this work, to do the maintenance of, cleaning up your mental health, getting it healthy. It's just hard to find people, and Pineapple Support makes that affordable, and they make it reachable. It's a perfect fit for sex workers who are often agoraphobic, and don't want to leave the house if they're not working. Because you can do it all by Skype, at first and really kind of shop around, until you find a good shrink. I struggled with mental health issues, the first half of my life really bad. I mean, all kinds of problems, so I know how much hard work it is to get on the other end of that, and how lucky I am to be on the other side.

Most people don't get past the stuff I was struggling with. So, I am a big fan of Pineapple Support. PervOut is a Bronze Sponsor of Pineapple Support, so we give them like $10,000 a year. I did that because now that a lot of performers are making, some are making 50K a month, some of them more, I think it's time for the performers to step up, and start sponsoring things like Pineapple Support. Not just Gamma, and MindGeek, and, you know, Grooby, and Kink. A lot of performers I think are screaming on Twitter, that “This Industry needs to change. We need this to change, we need that to change.” It's time to be the change. Now that the wealth has shifted over to the performer’s hands. OK! Well, it's time for performers to start donating to Pineapple Support, and the FSC (Free Speech Coalition). To start funding these things that we all need, and quit giving all the power to the gigantic companies and complaining about the outcome. We need to actually start doing something.

So, I figured if I sponsor Pineapple Support, at a high level, maybe it would inspire other people who are now independent producers, because of OnlyFans, who can afford to… to start doing the same. And if we all do it, if even 10 percent of the performers put in just what they could afford. Put in what you spend on UberEats a month, you know, or something like that. Pineapple Support would have enough funding to really make the changes and the same goes for FSC. The Free Speech Coalition is the only entity that legally can pay for lobbyists to keep sex work safe from Capitol Hill. It's literally our only line of defense from the government. Now, APAG (Adult Performance Artists Guild), and APAC (Adult Performer Advocacy Committee) are great. But, because of the way they’re structured, legally, they're not allowed to pay for lobbyists, but FSC can. So APAG and APAC have representatives on committees at the FSC, who are all on the legislative committee. So now, it's our job to raise the funding, and pick the lobbyists, and go fight. To make sure OnlyFans doesn't get shut down because of some new law, or make sure that… whatever doesn't happen. And… hopefully make it one day, to where if you're a sex worker, you can go open a bank account without any questions asked. You know, cut the discrimination out. That’s stuff that… really, I'm a huge advocate of. OK, performers, not just MindGeek, don’t wait for Brazzers to pay for this. It's time for you, the performer, to start throwing a couple thousand bucks a month at this. If you really want to see a change, and you want to vote on how the change goes, it's time to put your money where your mouth is. So that's what I’m up to there. Just trying to get people to kind of wake up to that, you know?

Jim– Sure. Just your way of … and it's a great way of giving back, and building the Industry that helped to build you, and keeping it safe, keeping it as healthy as possible.

Lance– Oh, yeah, and we needed it. Pineapple Support is just so great. One thing I'm working on, and I don't know if this is going to happen in a couple of months. But, just creating one fund that people can simply auto-pay to donate to every month. It goes 50/50 to Pineapple Support, and not to the FSC as a whole, but to the FSC’s lobbying fund. Because it's very specific, and that is something we also can't argue with. And if you put money into it, guess what? You get a say in what our lobbyist’s do. If you don’t put money into it. Guess what? You don't get to say what your trade association is doing for you. You don't pay, and you don't get to vote. But, paying members get a newsletter, they get a line of communication, they can give input. That's what we want, is all the performers together, giving their input like, “No, this is what it's like. Hey, so-and-so is a person of color, and they're trans, and they live in Nebraska. And they are super marginalized. So that person needs…” OK, but if you're making money on OnlyFans, take some of that money, put it into that fund, so we'll hear your voice.

But if they're not putting money in, and we’re not talking about a lot of money, just whatever they can afford. But if they don’t put money in, then they don't really get to say what we're doing, right?

Jim– Yeah, well, like you say, put your money where your mouth is and let your voice be heard.

Lance– Yeah. I think it's super important.

Jim– I'll tell you what, we've covered a lot of ground. I think that's a good note to end on, that you’re giving back, helping to build and support the Industry. So, I think that's a great place to kind of end. I’ve appreciated talking to you, I looked forward to this. I mentioned to the guys at XCritic, and it's the truth, that you have so much going on, too much to talk about at one time. So, I'd love to catch back up, maybe six months, maybe a year from now? Kind of follow back up on where we've been? And I'm sure by then, you're going to have some new stuff coming out as well.

Lance– Yeah, definitely. I have a couple of new sites that'll be up in the next year or two. I’m doing another gay site and this and that. So, yeah, we're growing.

Jim– Cool, man. For the time being, I really appreciate talking to you, and the time you've taken out. So, yeah, it's been great. I've had a blast. Have a terrific day. Say hello to Charlotte and your cats for me.

Lance– I will. Thanks for taking the time man, I really appreciate it. It’s been fun.

Follow Lance on Twitter @LanceHartFetish, Follow PervOutNetwork on Twitter @PervOutNetwork, and hit him up at OnlyFans! Visit PervOutNetwork on the web.

Special Thanks to Jesse Garza at 1984 Agency & cyber5 for setting this up!

Follow Jim on Twitter @TheJimSteele

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